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Saturday, November 25th, 2006GROWING WITHOUT SCHOOLING 18
We are trying out a lighter grade of paper for this issue; it allows us to increase the number of pages without costing us more in postage.
My home-schooling book is going to be called TEACH YOUR OWN; publication date is set at June 12, 1981. We will of course be selling it here, and we hope that as many readers as possible will buy it directly from us - but then again, we also hope you inquire for it at your local bookstore and try to get them to carry it. Not sure of the price yet.
I am about to leave on my California trip, which now includes stops in Santa Rosa, Mill Valley, Santa Cruz, San Jose, San Francisco, and Redlands. Our thanks to the GWS readers who helped put this trip together. And to those who were interested in having me speak but who could not be fit into the schedule: perhaps we could work on arranging another West Coast trip.
When I spoke at Normal, Ill. Oct. 29, I was surprised and delighted to see an overflow crowd of more than 700 people in the room. It seems to me, from talking with people on my travels as well as from the mail I get, that there are quite a lot of people in this country who are seriously considering teaching their own children; they may not be quite ready to do so, but they’re on the verge of deciding.
Mary Bergman (MO Dir.) tells us she has gotten “hundreds and hundreds” of letters in response to Paul Harvey’s newspaper column and radio show on the National Association of Home Educators.
The state legislatures in Louisiana and Wisconsin have recently passed new laws that mention the option of home education - more details in this issue. And a Colorado home schooling family told me on the phone the other day that they had a great deal of cooperation and support from the State Dept. of Education, even though their local school district had been giving them trouble. They said they would write us about it soon.
About the move in the Virginia legislature to tighten the private school “loophole” (see GWS #16), Abbey Lawrence writes: “…The subcommittee has met twice thus far. Rose Jones tells me that, according to the reporter who covered the fist, half the members seem to want to leave well enough alone, and half seem to want to do something, but don’t know what. I’m optimistic.”
A volunteer has just made an index to Issues #1-8 of GWS, and we should have copies available soon. Also, other volunteers are putting together a resource list of all the addresses of the organizations, periodicals, material, etc. that have been mentioned in GWS. If it’s short enough, we may include a copy of this list with GWS #19. - John Holt
COMING LECTURES
March 18, 1981: William Rainey Harper College, Palatine IL 60067; aft mtgs, 8 PM lecture. Contact Jeanne Pankanin, Stu. Act., 312-397-3000 ext. 242.
Apr 24: Music Educator’s Nat’l Conference, Arena, Minneapolis MN. 11 AM mtg, Minneapolis Convention Hall. Contact: Gene Morlan, 1902 Assoc. Dr, Reston VA 22091.
May 9: Ontario Secondary School Teachers Federation Conf., Airport Holiday Inn, Lancaster, Ontario. Contact Bob Morrow, 416-627-3685.
MAKING OF AN UNSCHOOLER
From Karen Franklin (AL):
…My 5th grade class was very interested in the Bicentennial in 1976. After several days of discussing the American Revolution, Boston Tea Party, Stamp Act, etc, I gave the required quiz. One of the questions was: “What is a boycott?” Now, this was a 5th grade in an all black school in Birmingham, Alabama. Out of 30 kids, only two explained the word in terms of the Stamp Act and American boycott of English imports. The other 28 said - and I quote - “It’s when you ain’t gonna ride the bus no more.”
For about two minutes that answer puzzled me, then it hit me - what else would you expect black Alabama 11-year-olds to say? They have heard about the Montgomery bus boycotts that helped start the Civil Rights movement since they were born. Of course that’s what it means. I grabbed the chance to use it and we compared the 1770’s to the 1960’s and I saw eyes all over the room light up - the ah-hah! look. It was wonderful.
I was so excited about it, I told the whole story in the afternoon faculty meeting. Everyone, including the black principal, was much more concerned that the students didn’t answer the question “RIGHT.” I was instructed to mark 28 answers wrong so they would learn to pay attention and “get their lessons.”
I didn’t do it; instead I quit in January before the birth of our first child and decided then and there both of us would stay home. We’ve been learning together ever since…
TRAVEL NETWORKS
From Elaine Andres, 2120 W. Cashman Ct, Peoria IL 61604:
…My husband John and I would like to offer another idea for unschoolers which is similar to the Learning Exchange idea in GWS #16. We would like to start a Network for Educational Travel (NET) for unschoolers. Anyone interested in having some other home-schooling family visit their part of the country can send us their name and address. We will put this information on a card. When a family wants to visit some place they can write to us for names of families who are willing to host them during their visit. The two families can then work out the details of the visit.
We are willing to provide floor space for sleeping bags, a kitchen for cooking their own meals (each family furnishes its own food), a bathroom (bring own towels, soap, etc.) and our ideas on what to do and where to go in Central Illinois.
Our area has many interesting places to visit and experiences to offer. I’m sure every part of our country has unique sights to see and places to explore. We hope others would be willing to share their homes with us as this would be an inexpensive way to educate our children together. It would be a lot of fun sharing ideas, too!…
Many thanks to Elaine for her good offer. It will be exciting to see what comes of it.
We have also heard of a similar on-going organization for world travel: U.S. SERVAS, 11 John St, Rm 406, New York NY 10038. With the dollar in decline, many people from other countries are visiting the US, and this might be a good way for GWS readers to make friends with them and perhaps learn their language. From the SERVAS brochure:
SERVAS is an international cooperative system of hosts and travelers established to help build world peace, good will, and understanding by providing opportunities for deeper, more personal contacts among people of diverse cultures and backgrounds.
…Have you ever wished you could get beyond the tourist attractions and know the people where you travel? SERVAS may be the answer… You plan your own trip using lists of hosts in the countries where you wish to go. These lists give the hosts’ addresses, phone numbers, languages spoken, activities, and interests. You share the everyday life of the family whom you visit. Stays are usually 2 or 3 days. …There is a small contribution to cover SERVAS expenses. No money is exchanged between travelers and hosts.
SERVAS invites you to be a host. …”For those of us who can’t travel,” says one host, “SERVAS brings the world into our living rooms through the visits of friendly, enthusiastic people from every continent.”
Hosts share their family meals with travelers and provide accommodations that will fill simple needs. SERVAS travelers …are expected to arrange the visit with you beforehand by letter or phone. Hosts are urged to avoid accepting travelers when they are planning to be away, or if the arrangements would interfere with important plans.
To obtain a traveler and/or host application, send SERVAS a long-sized self-addressed stamped envelope…
AN UNSCHOOLING CO-OP
From Laurie Davis (MI):
…We have been unschoolers for nearly three years, and have recently become part of a group of “home” schoolers with the addition of four families.
Perhaps you would like to know how we are operating on a group level. We five families take turns meeting one day a week at alternating homes for a “school day” which consists of a variety of activities hosted by one or more adults and usually includes eight children ages 5-11. We have done things like potato-printing art, writing or dictating autobiographies, fruit harvesting at a commercial orchard, having a sandwich concession at a local art fair, and opening a bank account with the money well-earned. (The money will be used for supplies or for future field trips, possibly to the Chicago Museum of Natural History, which is quite a trek for 22 of us from northern Michigan!) We try to focus on developing and maintaining positive self-images; to do quiet, thoughtful things together like yoga and brief meditation; to talk about feelings and interests - really trying to notice what goes on inside as well as outside of ourselves.
One trip to a small local zoo prompted a follow-up trip to the library where we did research on a chosen animal, discovering its real habitat, how natural life differed from zoo life, how the zoo could be changed to be more accommodating. The children really enjoy the field trips and the chance at interaction, sharing fun and learning. The once-a-week socializing is far superior to what they would get in school on a daily basis.
Other main focuses are environment, health, and conservation, and there is always lots to do as a group in those areas: visiting Michigan’s last remaining virgin forest, or preparing a meal from scratch, or recycling old clothing into new garments. A few of these we haven’t done yet - we have such a long exciting list! Basically, we as a group have resolved to do reading/math-type work at home on an individual basis, and group or community projects weekly or whenever something special comes up which would be enjoyed by most. We find by remaining fairly informal, open, and honest, there is very little concern with group dynamics or decision-making type stuff.
We may be able to use our local elementary school gym for playing in the winter time. It is open for public use as long as advance notice is given and it’s not already being used. Same goes for the school library, audio-visual aids, etc.
As far as how we have all managed to take our kids out of school: we are very fortunate to have amongst us three certified teachers, so the question of where do we get our tutors is automatically answered. There have not been many questions by local authorities concerning this arrangement… We’ll be sure to let you know of further developments in this area.
…We try to have regular meetings with the adults of the group to discuss our home-schooling experiences, and to share ideas, support, doubts, and fears. We are all getting to know each other better and find the “safety in numbers” element a definite plus, as opposed to being unschooler alone.
Some of us have our doubtful moments: “Am I doing the right thing?” “Is X really going to learn how to read all by herself?” It really helps to have each other (and GWS) for reassurance. And we have to remind ourselves not to come on as in the traditional teacher-student situation. You can tell when you’re getting “structured” - the kids clam right up! You have to stop and think why the kids are at home instead of in school. If you really trust them, I think they can feel that and it really adds to their self-confidence.
The Middletons (see Dir.) would be interested in exchanging letters with other home schoolers who might consider a kid exchange in the future. They have pre-teen and teenage daughters. Maybe an exchange could be initiated by “pen-pals” getting to know one another and eventually arranging a meeting… Most of the parents I have talked to seem to have reservations about actually sending one of their kids to the home a stranger, unschoolers or not. Maybe the whole thing does need to be tossed around awhile before anything positive comes of it.
…We may be building our house next summer and it would be fun to share the whole experience with someone to whom it would mean a lot. We would probably live in a tent or other makeshift shelter during the building process. We will be anxious to share ideas with others out there - anybody could write us.
…Also, I think it would be wonderful - at our house at least - if we could get a foster grandparent somewhere, part- or full-time. It is something we have given thought to many times; we are so limited within our nuclear families. Children (as well as myself) always seem to be in awe of older people, and there would be so much to share. I’m sure there must be many lonely and talented older people out there who would just love to have a family! In all the advertising and recruiting I have seen for intentional communities, there have never been any requests for grandparently types…
Even a teenager who likes younger kids and would be interested in spending time with us as a mother’s/ kids’ helper in exchange for room and board or something equitable would be considered. It could be for a week or two or a month or more…
LIVE-INS WANTED: NC…
From Shelly Dameron in NC (GWS #17, “Learning Exchanges”):
…Two articles in GWS #17 caught my eye. …First, I read “Live-in Babysitters.” You may remember that I wrote that it was difficult to find a job where my baby would be welcome. Having a live-in babysitter would be a good solution, but the problem would still be money. The article following that one on the idea of a Kids Exchange, sparked my thought: How about a combination of both? That is, teenagers living with a different family for whatever reason, might be willing to help out with the babysitting.
We live in the Appalachian Mountains of North Carolina. In the winter months, I’m told we have good skiing, and in the summer there are many outdoor activities. I would be interested to know if any young people or parents among the GWS readers would be interested our particular situation. Perhaps someone could come to be in this area for a week or month or whatever and stay with us. The babysitting itself would be minimal…
…AND VA…
From Connie Schwartz, Golden Horseshoe Inn, Stanardsville VA 22973:
…After 16 issues of GWS, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps we have something very valuable to offer to others. First, we teach our four sons at home (ages 1-1/2, 3, 5, & 6-1/2). Second, home is an old brick/ frame house located on the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia, adjacent to the Shenandoah National Park. We own approximately 20 acres and a motorcycle sales and repair shop. We live a life as nearly self-sufficient as possible. We raise sheep, ducks, rabbits, bees, chickens, fatten some pigs and just recently acquired a milk cow - a long desired dream. We breed, raise, fatten, slaughter, butcher, and preserve all our own animals. We also do extensive gardening, starting our own plants and preserving all we don’t eat.
I feel we have a large variety of experience to offer. Mechanical, farming chores of all kinds (fencing, worming, feeding, loving, etc.), gardening ( we practice organic), food preservation and storage, cooking (we make most things from scratch including bread and butter), complete building construction, logging and wood cutting, beekeeping, homemaking, actually the list goes on and on. We are currently looking for a spinning wheel and floor loom so we can spin and weave our own wool.
Our children are included in all of this and we’d like to share it with others who haven’t the chance otherwise. No age limits, but they’ll either have to do enough work for their keep, or pay some room and board. We have no TV or radio, but lots of books and the bookmobile comes literally to our front door twice monthly. We have an endless list of projects to be done and never enough time.
We are willing to share our home and the life we love in return for the labor and knowledge of another. Witnessing the reaction of a newcomer to this type of life will also be enriching. This would have to be arranged on a personal basis with anyone interested, of course, but we are looking for people of clean living habits. We feel a bit shaky making this offer, as there are all kinds of kooks and weirdos in the world, but we still feel that there would be many benefits to all parties. For further information please contact us at the above address…
…AND WISC.
From Gretchen Spicer, RT 1 Box 85, New Lisbon WI 53950:
…We would be interested in both a live-in babysitter and the kids exchange. We live on a farm with two other families. Altogether there are nine children at the farm ranging in age from 6 weeks to 10 years. We have goats (for milk) and a very large garden, apple trees, grapes, raspberries, etc. We also have a T-shirt screening business. We do maple-sugaring in the spring. We would be glad to have kids of any age on an exchange basis.
We could offer a live-in babysitter room and board and $50 a month for about 10 hours of babysitting per week. We have four children ages 10, 7, 6 and 2. The 2-year-old is the only one that actually needs to be “watched.” The three older children only need someone around if they need help. A young person living with us could also make additional money babysitting on an hourly basis for the other two families here, besides some part-time work in the T-Shirt business. Other part-tine work on neighboring farms might be available from time to time. Anyone interested could call us collect at 608-562-3969.
…I was interested in the comment from Louise Andrieshyn (GWS #17, “A Singing Painter”). She mentioned that her daughter did not start singing until she left her alone. I noticed recently that when I was helping my kids with their reading that I sometimes found myself getting up and doing household chores, in which case I did not hear their requests for help, or I would try to put them off until I was finished with what I was doing. On the other hand, if I sat right by them and watched what they were doing, I found myself jumping to explain things that they could surely have figured out and worse yet, becoming bossy and impatient.
Quite by accident I found the perfect solution one day when I was engrossed in a novel that I couldn’t put down and they wanted help with their work books. I just sat close at hand and continued reading. I was right there and available when they wanted help, but not so bored that I was sticking my nose into their business all the time. Best of all, there I was actively enjoying the very skill that they were working to master. Now I really look forward to sitting down with them to work on reading…
WHAT GENIUSES NEED
A reader sent us an article, “The Childhood Pattern of Genius,” which appeared in Horizon Magazine, May 1960. The writer, Harold G McCurdy, describes the childhood of twenty notable “geniuses,” including John Stuart Mill, Goethe, Pascal, Coleridge, and Voltaire. The article concludes:
…In summary, the present survey of biographical information on a sample of twenty men of genius suggests that the typical developmental pattern includes as important aspects: (1) a high degree of attention focused upon the child by parents and other adults, expressed in intensive education measures and, usually, abundant love; (2) isolation from other children, especially outside the family; and (3) a rich efflorescence of fantasy as a reaction to the preceding conditions. It might be remarked that the mass education of our public school system is, in its way, a vast experiment on the effect of reducing all three factors to a minimum; accordingly, it should tend to suppress the occurrence of genius…
INFO SOURCE: NY…
From Harold Ingraham, INDEPENDENT FAMILY SCHOOLS RESOURCE CENTER (RD 1, Smyrna NY 13464; 607-627-6670):
…Please feel free to refer any family to us. A few of those who read of our center in the Directory of GWS #15 called us just to chat and lift their spirits. I think sometimes this is the best part of the services we provide. There is nothing like talking to a trusted colleague.
…The resource center is far from being like the standard social world. We just feel that our experience can be a help to parents getting their feet wet. Since we won our case in the courts, there has been a steady stream of cases that we have helped.
I have listed what we have done in the way of helping families. The experiences go like this:
1. How to meet with a public school official
2. Dealing with lawyers
3. A run-down on NY education laws
4. Recognizing the unique individuality of a child
5. Help in writing up a curriculum to present to a Board of Education
6. Referral to legal help
7. Simply a shoulder to lean on when the going gets tough
8. Training workshop in using a library
9. Correspondence with family-school students who like to write and be written to on interesting topics
10. Suggesting a reading study list in classical literature
11. A do and don’t list of how to break the news of new-found educational independence to society
12. How to use the news media effectively when in court
13. A list of available correspondence, private, and Christian schools
14. Referral to good private tutors
15. Workshops in teaching reading and math skills
16. Textbook selection and resources for good books (like the GWS list)
17. Publications that help a family-school get started and give good advice, like GWS
18. Planning and preparation before starting a family-school, such as getting the idea across to the children
And here are a few things we would like to do:
1. To finish our NY educational law manual which states the law and how to comply as a family school, with practical advice on how to deal with public school officials
2. Provide a guideline for writing a curriculum
3. Provide more workshops for parents who want training in teaching skills to their children..
…AND NJ
Meg Johnson (337 Downs St, Ridgewood NJ 07450; 201-447-4044) writes:
…I established the HOME EDUCATION RESOURCE CENTER this summer, at the request of several friends around the country. I have a considerable amount of information and ideas on home schooling and wish to share it. (The only problem being I can’t afford this venture.)
I’m offering a booklet including “A Preliminary Guide for Preparing to Teach Children at Home,” and “Do Children Really Need Peer Group Socialization?” for $3.00. I also have a list of books for people interested in home schooling, a list of home study courses, and address list for sources of material, a packet on how to set up a support group, a sample of an academic program accepted by a local school district…
Donations of any amount would be appreciated as materials will only be sent out as there are sufficient funds. Handling, printing, and distribution costs 20¢ per page or more…
SCHOOL IN PA.
From Sandy Hurst at UPATTINAS SCHOOL, RD 1, Box 378, Glenmoore PA 19343 (215-458-5138):
…We are willing to have ourselves listed as a school which takes home study students. We are developing independent study courses which have been successful with some students, and others use the Pa. State University extension courses for high school. We like to work with each student individually according to his/ her needs.
One child is severely brain damaged and his mother works so well with him that we do not interfere. We simply keep him on our rolls. This way his public school doesn’t have to cope with him and his family can have him at home. This particular mother had all sorts of difficulty with the schools until she told them that the child was enrolled here, and I wrote them an official letter. Neither of us has heard from them since.
Last year we had a waiting list for our school and had several students doing work at home so that they could get out of bad situations in their local schools while waiting for space in our school. One girl just needed to get a few credits so that she could save face to go back to her old school. So you see, we are pretty flexible as to what goes. We do recommend that students become minimally involved in the school if it seems possible - they come to meetings sometimes and help out with special affairs. We charge $75.00.
So far we do not feel any pressure to be secretive. We feel that we will simply continue to do what we’re doing and if the authorities ask questions we’ll deal with that when it happens…
CORRESPONDENCE SCHOOL
From Mrs. Carol A. Christopher of the BETHANY HOMESTEAD CHRISTIAN RESOURCE CENTER (RFD 1 Box 220, Taylor Rd, Thompson CT 06277; 203-928-0453):
…We have heard of your work and have read some of the recent magazine interviews concerning your program. The Bethany Homestead Christian Resource Center is also an organization supporting home schooling. We are a small Seventh-day Adventist self-supporting group providing school books, materials, schedule helps and, when necessary, a support umbrella if school authorities inquire.
Our curriculum is a combination work-study program set according to individual student needs. We offer two correspondence-type programs to aid parents who teach at home. We serve families all across the United States, Canada, and a few foreign countries.
…The cost for enrollment is $100 per family for one year - September through June. If more than one family has joined together to form a school, the cost is the same, since all information is being sent to one location…
MORE “COVER SCHOOL” NEWS
From the Michigan Coalition of Alternative Schools Newsletter:
…The HOME BASED EDUCATION PROGRAM was started officially in August, using office space at Clonlara (1289 Jewett, Ann Arbor MI 48104; phone 313-769-4515) and directed by Pat Montgomery (Dr. Pat Montgomery now, mind you!) Of course, there is no way of knowing how many Michigan families are doing home study but the number who are actually enrolled in H.B.E.P. now is 32 students. Another 115 have made inquiries…
From Bonnie Williams, OAK MEADOW SCHOOL (PO Box 1051, Ojai CA 93023, 805-646-4510):
…We presently have 55 students enrolled from all over the US and so far so good. We recently had a case in Northern Calif. where the sheriff visited a mother and told her to report to school. She approached the Superintendent of schools and told him that she was enrolled in our home study program and wanted to make it legal. He merely sent her down the hall to fill out an affidavit and the people in the office even helped her to fill it out…
Ed Nagel tells us that the SANTA FE COMMUNITY SCHOOL (PO Box 2241, Santa Fe NM 87501) has enrolled over 200 home-study students since 1976 - 115 in 1980-81 so far.
Other schools that have told us recently that they are willing to help home-schoolers:
HOME SCHOOL, Manuela Schreiner, 849 Drake St, Cambria CA 93428; (805) 927-4137.
JONATHAN’S PLACE, Pat & Marshall Martin, 4301 Harrison, Kansas City MO 64112; (816) 753-5392 or 444-3168.
HOLT SCHOOL, Ann Bodine, Box 866, New Providence NJ 07974.
HALVI SCHOOL, H. Baer, 124 N Paredes Line Rd, Brownsville TX 78520; (512) 546-1449.
THE JOHN HOLT LEARNING CENTER, James Salisbury, 8446 S Harrison St, Midvale UT 84047.
HOME STUDY IN ALASKA
A reader in Alaska writes:
…There is an elaborate homeschooling correspondence course in Fairbanks. When we enrolled our daughter this spring, they offered no objections - in filling out her forms, we were simply asked to give a reason for using the correspondence school and I had the feeling that they would have accepted any reasonable-sounding explanation. They took the form and handed us five big boxes of materials - workbooks, art materials, books to read. The workbooks are boring and stupid but required. According to the correspondence teachers, there are about 50 children (all grades) in the Fairbanks school district who use the program. This Fairbanks office is only for students within the school district - the “bush” students work through Juneau, the head office…
L.D. ARTICLE
My friend Merritt Clifton, who publishes a small literary magazine, Samisdat, recently wrote a long article called, “Learning Disabilities: What the Publicity Doesn’t Tell.” It is quite extensive, thorough, and skeptical of the whole notion of “LD” - good ammunition for any who are concerned with fighting this battle. It was printed in two issues of The Townships Sun (Box 28, Lennoxville, Que. J1M 1Z3), which Merritt says, “is a good, family-oriented monthly news-magazine focusing on alternative energy, handicrafts, back-to-the-earth, and almanac-type historical curiosities.” For $1.50, Merritt will send you clips of the article; for $2.50, the complete issue of The Townships Sun. Send US or Canadian money to him at Box 129, Richford VT 05476, or Box 10, Brigham, Quebec, J0E 1J0.
CONN. HOME-SCHOOLERS
The Tromblys (CT) sent this story from their local paper:
…David Cole, assistant superintendent of East Lynne Schools, admitted the Trombly’s request “took some getting used to,” but that now a “very positive relationship” exists between the two sides.
What Cole and other educators don’t say, however, is that home education is available to practically any family who wishes to give it a try. For instance, there are no requirements that parents be certified instructors. Even the state law, which education department spokesmen declined to comment on, is so vague it is almost impossible to prevent anyone from educating their children at home, as long as they have the time.
Under Section 10-184 of the Conn. General Statutes, children between the ages of 7 and 16 must attend a public school “unless the parent…is able to show that the children are elsewhere receiving equivalent instructions in the studies taught in the public schools.” Thus far, no cases have gone to court regarding the home education issue in Connecticut.
…Where there used to be only a few correspondence schools for the interested parent to choose from, there now are many, which perhaps better than any other yardstick, measures the growth of home education programs…
Eileen Trombly added:
…You might be relieved to know that, although as yet unlisted in GWS, there are many interested people preparing to “home-instruct.” The many we have spoken with all have pre-school children and want to “get it all together” ahead of time. We do recommend to them that they draw up their plans before meeting with any officials, and have a plan of action ready to submit, but not to do so until the necessary time (age 6 in Conn.).
We also have suggested agreeing to allow their children to be given standardized tests twice a year, and agreeing to instruct 180 days per year, minimum 4 hours per day. The testing is to satisfy local and state boards. This, along with a curriculum, seems to be all that’s necessary to turn in to the superintendent.
As you are aware - the standardized testing is almost worthless, but it satisfies them. We do not agree to any other type of testing. Several years back an incident came up whereby a teacher administrating the tests gave her own type of test - asking the girls questions that indicated to her that they were “unhappy because they missed their school friends.” Her personal opinion on this whole idea was given at the conclusion of the test in writing. We stopped this.
Anyway - as more people get involved in the actual instruction process, they will include their names in the directory. They are anxious to…